鈥溌槎勾� Talks鈥� hosts top professionals from different sectors of the lumber and building material industry to share their expertise, with a heavy emphasis on practical, tactical strategies to help you serve your markets and grow your business.
Join 麻豆传媒 Talks host, Thea Dudley, as she brings her razor-sharp expertise to dissect trends, regulatory changes, and offers real-world advice for credit professionals. In this episode, Thea discusses what happens when veteran credit managers retire and companies don鈥檛 know what to do.
Join Thea and Jon Flora, CEO of the National Association of Credit Managers (NACM) Business Credit Services (BSC), as they discuss topics like recruiting, networking, and training鈥攁ll necessary protocol to keeping your back office staffed.
Please send any inquiries to thea@creditoverlord.com.
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Prefer to read about it instead? Take a peek at the transcript below for Episode 12: Succession Planning for Your Credit Department with Jon Flora.
(Editor鈥檚 note: Transcript is AI-generated and may include some errors.)听
Thea听
Hey everybody. This is Thea Dudley, also known as the Credit Overlord, and welcome to another edition of 麻豆传媒 Talks Credit. We are the only podcast that鈥檚 talking about trade credit and the 麻豆传媒 and construction space. I want to talk today about fear, specifically job fear. And I have a just an amazing colleague, friend, resource, John flora, who is CEO of NACM BCS, which is business credit services, and he鈥檚 out there in Seattle. So John, welcome Greetings. How are you?
John
Pretty good, you know, I I鈥檝e had a couple of conversations with some credit people across the country, and fear seems to be the word of the day, which I thought after the election, maybe everybody would calm down. But apparently it鈥檚 too soon to hope. Yeah, I think that鈥檚 true.
Thea
So we鈥檙e talking about the like job concerns. And just like every other profession, credit managers are in short supply, you鈥檙e either looking for somebody, somebody鈥檚 leaving. You people are retiring. People that are in the retirement age don鈥檛 want to leave, but their companies are consolidating or being acquired. So there鈥檚 this kind of this fear. You don鈥檛 want to let people go, but you know that some people are going to be retiring, but you can鈥檛 get new people in, and it kind of just creates this whole snowball effect. And even companies that you would think would be easy to attract people to are coming back saying we鈥檙e asking people to come out of retirement to do credit.
John
I would agree, and it鈥檚 interesting that, I, how do I want to put this? I think people are fearful, and I think it鈥檚 it affects a lot of a lot more than just their professional life. There鈥檚 just a lot going on in the world. It鈥檚 a very complicated place these days. And I can鈥檛 say I like it, but it is what it is. And you sometimes have to tiptoe around conversations, because it鈥檚 amazing how quickly you can rattle somebody and get them all revved up in your general direction. But when it comes to the education piece, you know I come from, I don鈥檛 know when I think, 35 years ago, when I first got out of college, I had the benefit of working for a one person particular who was real focused on making sure that I, as a 20 something, got good got good training, mentoring. And to be honest, if he were to call me today, and I think he鈥檚 85 or something like that. But if he called me to answer, would you come work for me? I鈥檇 probably drop what I鈥檓 doing and go. He was a hard, hard guy to work for, but I learned so much, and he he was committed to me and a number of other younger people to making sure we could be the best we could be. And that gets to be hard to find today. Oh, I think that鈥檚, that鈥檚 really hard to find, John. I mean, when you look at it, that鈥檚, first of all, people don鈥檛 stay in jobs like they used to. You know, you don鈥檛, you don鈥檛 go in there and you鈥檙e there for 100 years. And it, you know, we were talking, before we jumped on the podcast, about somebody who was with a company for four years, and they hated to see that person go, but you鈥檙e like, hey, at least you got four good years out of them. But I think the other thing is, why are we not, not only are we not providing, I think enough support for new credit people coming in, because I hear that a lot as I need some beginner classes. I need some basics, and those of us that are in it, and I know NAC, I know you put on some great, great programs, but you鈥檙e even having a hard time getting people to just show up, sign up and take the classes, and you鈥檙e like, look, they鈥檙e here. But I think a lot of it goes back to if you鈥檙e running so thin, and a lot of companies are running thin, then you don鈥檛 have time to work with the new people that you鈥檙e bringing on and coach them and train them and mentor them. It鈥檚 more like, Hey, I鈥檓 going to drop you into the deep end of the ocean with an acre on you. And if you swim to shore, hey, you get to stay and that鈥檚 really true, if you look back at let鈥檚 see, I鈥檝e been here almost 13 years, and when I arrived, we still had the veteran people at our member companies who would who would support the education of their younger staff.
They鈥檇 pay to send them to conferences, they鈥檇 pay to have them take classes. And that was a real active part of what NACM was, and to a certain extent, remains to be, it was part of, really what made us work. And then COVID came along, and I think also just the demographics of life with people aging out. But there was just a lot of change in four years, and you don鈥檛 have the same kind of people at the top saying we need to train our folks. And that sort of exacerbates a problem that I don鈥檛 I don鈥檛 know how we鈥檙e going to change it. We have to, but I don鈥檛 know how we do it. Credit is not taught at any college or university. You don鈥檛 go to school to be a credit manager. You can go get your accounting instruction, you can get finance instruction, marketing, all that, but outside of maybe a chapter in a business law class, you鈥檙e not going to get any kind of training at the college level in credit and we have, you know, we鈥檙e trying, we鈥檝e been trying hard for the last three or four years to make a scholarship available to current college students and get them an internship in a credit department, a paid internship, and put those together to get that background. Maybe it gets them their first job out of school. That is a huge I鈥檓 finding a huge pipe dream we鈥檝e been working on for it is and it鈥檚 one that come right after the first of the year. I鈥檓 going to be focusing most of my time on how do we make this work? Because the colleges and universities that I鈥檝e been in touch with largely on the west coast, but not just here in in my humble state of Washington. I鈥檝e talked to a lot of schools, four year, two, year, you name it. And enrollments are tight. Their funding is tight. They immediately think that this guy from a credit organization is going to want to change the curriculum, which I don鈥檛 want to do. I want to get a kid placed in an internship, pay them for that, and give them an experience, and also give them a little scholarship to help pay their bill. That could be huge.
And I speak from experience, having had, I think, four internships when I was in college, and I got a job out of one of them, and I could have had a job from two of them, and that still works today, but trying to, they鈥檝e got their own challenges. I can鈥檛. I don鈥檛 know of a school right now that doesn鈥檛 have enrollment issues, which means they have budget issues. And so what we鈥檙e experiencing they also experience, but somehow we got to get them early and get them to learn about what we do. Doesn鈥檛 mean they鈥檙e going to be a credit person forever, but on the road to, no, I鈥檝e been a credit person forever, and I, you know, I, but I think you have to find what you鈥檙e passionate about. And that鈥檚, that鈥檚 the other side of it. Is everybody wants experience. You can鈥檛 get experience without a job. And yet, this is one of those jobs that it sounds like, oh, you know, see, all you guys do is call, you know, it鈥檚 just like robocalling or dialing for dollars. It鈥檚 absolutely not. Credit management is so much different than that. Not only are you, you know your portfolio is basically you鈥檙e running like a mini company. You鈥檙e creating relationships. You have to know different lien laws. You have to be aware of taxing issues. There are all these pieces and components that go to it, and a lot of times you it is a lot of learning on the job, but it goes back to if you鈥檙e not adequately staffed, how do you expect people? I can鈥檛 just peel off three hours a day if I鈥檓 running a department to train and work with the people the way that I need to and yet I can鈥檛 get funding for more people, or I can鈥檛 send them somewhere. So it kind of becomes this catch 22 and it鈥檚 like a chicken and egg. It鈥檚 like, okay, so what do you do now? It鈥檚, we鈥檙e pulling people out of retirement, but are they just putting band aids on stuff? It鈥檚 like, I just need you for a couple of years, and then if you retire again, it鈥檚 like you. So what in those two or three years did you do to solve the problem? Because I don鈥檛 want to die. I鈥檓 not a die at my desk kind of woman. I鈥檓 not going to die here. You know, that鈥檚 just that might be somebody鈥檚 dream. It鈥檚 not mine. So how are we bringing those, those folks on? And it鈥檚 amazing. I don鈥檛 think people really think of credit management as an actual career. It鈥檚 like, almost, yeah, it showed up. It鈥檚 like, no, it鈥檚, it鈥檚 a you can do quite well and make a great career there. I know a number of people who are have done very well in this, in this world at the same time, they鈥檝e, they鈥檝e all those people who are now vice presidents of credit or whatever the title may be in a large company.
John
They also have aspirations to maybe be a CFO someday, or whatever. They still have that that upward mobility thing in mind. But a lot of this comes back to what the guy at the top, guy or gal at the top saying we are going to be committed to training, and the idea that times are tough and we may not have the money for that, I think that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don鈥檛 invest in the future of your people, then you鈥檙e going to have a problem. Well, and I we, I can think of one of our members right now who has a one of our truly veteran credit managers. She鈥檚 been ready to go for a year at least, maybe longer, and they keep asking her to stay, and they sweeten the pot, and I think she may be hanging it up at the end of this month, but the last time I talked to her, there was some possibility it was going to extend. So they keep doing that, and she鈥檚 very good at what she does, one of the best, I think I could say. But they鈥檙e also not looking at what happens after her, and what鈥檚 the long term effect of doing that. And as you noted, part time, you鈥檙e either you鈥檙e either you鈥檙e going to walk out, get thrown out, or go out feet first, and most of us would like to walk out. And so in her case, she has stuff she wants to do however many years she has left, and working is not necessarily what it used to be. She likes to check but even that鈥檚 wearing thin, and so the company really needs to take a hard look at how they鈥檙e either locating the next person or training an in house person to be the next head honcho. And I see that happen far too often, and that strikes me as the question that comes to my mind is, does that is the value of the credit manager or credit department kind of low on the totem pole, until suddenly, somebody looks at the AR and goes, oh my god, we have a problem.
Thea
Oh yeah, your cash flow goes to hell. Yeah, your cash flow goes to hell. And then it鈥檚 done. But you know, I it comes back to, you know, how are you? Everybody talks about succession planning. What about succession planning in your credit department? I mean, here鈥檚 this person who she鈥檚 been ready to go for a year, and I鈥檝e known credit managers that they talked into will work part time. That never works if you鈥檙e trying to get the new person installed or grow people up, and you鈥檝e still got the the I鈥檓 going to call them the old credit manager or the old leader, and they鈥檙e working part time. It鈥檚 the natural default that you鈥檙e going to go back to that person, and then it creates more of a bottleneck than what you would have liked. It creates its own set of problems. But I really think that succession planning is what does that look like. And I mean, I have one credit manager friend who she decided, here鈥檚 what I want to work to, and she told her company four years ago, I鈥檓 retiring at the end of 2026 let鈥檚 start bringing people on now. Let me start working training with them. Let me start handing stuff over. I don鈥檛 want to go to any conferences. I鈥檝e seen enough in my lifetime. These people need this is where I鈥檓 going to put my money.
John
And she had such a plan that her company went, okay, you know, they just, they鈥檙e like, all right? And she鈥檚 like, Yeah, this is a hard stop. Here鈥檚 how old I鈥檓 going to be. I鈥檓 out. And I, I wonder if that鈥檚 part of the problem is that we do have a lot of people that they鈥檙e not sure they want to retire. They look at it and it鈥檚, it鈥檚 something that, yeah, I鈥檓 going to retire. I鈥檓 going to retire, but they鈥檝e said it so much that nobody takes them seriously. So you don鈥檛, you don鈥檛 see people coming on board. You don鈥檛 see them bringing anybody and training up, because this person really isn鈥檛 serious. They haven鈥檛, they haven鈥檛 put their line in the sand. Well, I can speak from my own experience. It鈥檚 no great secret that I鈥檓 on the glide path to retirement. And this began in January of 23 when I told my board that the time was coming, and my date, while it was never fixed, it鈥檚, you know, it鈥檚 sort of in my plan. And I got a lot of, you know, please don鈥檛 go. We love you. Please don鈥檛 go. And I went, and I said, I鈥檓 going to go, but you鈥檝e got plenty of time here that I鈥檓 not giving you a drop dead date. But let鈥檚 start working at it. So we have a plan. Nine months later, nothing had happened. So at that, at that board meeting, I said I wasn鈥檛 kidding. I鈥檓 going to go. And so here鈥檚 your plan. I鈥檝e written it for you. This is how you do it. And suddenly I was training them how to how to find my successor. And I that鈥檚 what I realized that my board, which is credit managers, they don鈥檛 do this kind of stuff, and I鈥檝e had to, I had to teach them how to do a contract to hire me. And so 12 years ago, and we鈥檝e updated that, it鈥檚 been a learning experience for all of them, and it鈥檚 been fun to teach them. But when it came to this there, you know, it鈥檚 like, I don鈥檛 want to pick my successor. That鈥檚 not right. I don鈥檛 want to be the ghost of Christmas past and hang around forever either. And so let鈥檚, let鈥檚 get this done. Here鈥檚 the plan. We hired a search firm, got it done, and have succeeded in finding my successor. The surprise for me was that the board came back to me with a with a. With an option to remain engaged. It wasn鈥檛 really an option. They weren鈥檛 they were grabbing onto the sweater and going, you鈥檙e not going. And so I鈥檓 still engaged with a couple of projects that they really want me to finish up. And so for the next year and a half or so, I鈥檓 still here, but it鈥檚 a unique situation. I鈥檝e made it very clear to my successor that if I am the Ghost of Christmas Past and I鈥檓 in the way, just tell me and we鈥檒l we鈥檒l fix it. But it took a plan, and for me, it was easy to write that plan. Now the part of the plan that is harder, and this may be another podcast on another day, maybe an education class we end up teaching. Yeah, that鈥檚 right, that鈥檚 right. But now the question is, what鈥檚 John鈥檚 plan? And that鈥檚 much harder to do. So if you were to say to me, what are you going to do? Flora, I don鈥檛 know, but I do know I鈥檓 not sitting on the front porch, on the lovely, comfortable chairs we have, because I don鈥檛 think my family will tolerate that, nor do I want to do that. But I think that does bring up a couple of things. John, not only are we, we鈥檙e looking for credit people. We we鈥檙e having, you know, we鈥檙e using, we鈥檙e all using the poach method. You鈥檙e just, who do you know, and can I steal them from somebody else? So we鈥檝e got that going. There鈥檚 the group that is set to retire, but they they鈥檙e squishy retirement, or they get they retire and they get drug back out. But that brings up a whole other thing. Why a lot of people aren鈥檛 retiring is they have no idea what that looks like after retirement, and that that鈥檚 a whole other, that that whole fear thing of, Am I going to be relevant? What am I going to do?
John
Can I afford to retire? Well, and there, okay, there鈥檚 the financial piece of it as well. But I think the one interesting thing I鈥檒l add here, which gets us back to the whole education piece we recently had in October. We did a regional conference here in in the Seattle, Tacoma area, and one of the highest rated speakers was a head hunter, executive search person, and I was surprised how many people that attended his presentation actually already knew the guy, and they鈥檇 been involved with using them, or they鈥檇, you know their company had used them. He鈥檇 help place them, and I had no idea. He didn鈥檛, he didn鈥檛 share what his involvement with, with credit people, was prior to the conference. I knew him. He was a college friend, actually, and, and he went over very, very well. But his whole deal was about, how do you survive a merger acquisition or other change in your professional life and involved networking and using people like him, of course, and building all that. But I think that鈥檚 a, again, hiring a search person is something that鈥檚 a little alien to our world, probably because we deal with smaller companies, and they don鈥檛 want to spend that kind of money or can鈥檛. But it鈥檚 a it鈥檚 a good investment. And I was really, it was really, really interesting to see how many people stayed afterwards to talk with him and sort of reeducate him on their particular situations. So that鈥檚 part of the mix as well. You know, building your network and knowing who your resources are and how to how to deal with them going forward. And so, you know, that fits into it as well, well. And that鈥檚 a whole other.
Thea
That鈥檚 a whole other rabbit hole we could go down where sometimes we don鈥檛 do ourselves the best service at trying to have that network credit people tend to, tend to get in their lane, and they鈥檙e doing their thing, and they might connect with some other credit people, and, you know, have that communication where we鈥檙e checking on customers, or we鈥檙e collecting money or doing something like that, but they don鈥檛 think about the big picture of growing that network where if something happens, where they that you get new ownership or private equity, or there鈥檚 a merger, or They just want to change, they have limited their options so much, instead of building that that bench. The other thing that I think is intriguing is that, as we see folks retire, instead of just hey, you have to totally sunset yourself. How about setting up a program where, hey, you might not want to credit manage anymore. You might be ready to retire, but are you willing to give 10 hours a week that we pay you to come in and coach and mentor the new people we鈥檙e bringing on so they have this resource, and you鈥檙e kind of like on tap or on retainer, or whoever you want to put it, and this way you鈥檙e getting the benefit of that, and you鈥檙e the person who鈥檚 currently leading the team. Doesn鈥檛 have to spend the time. Maybe they don鈥檛 have or maybe they don鈥檛 have somebody who鈥檚 at the point where they could be a leader. They鈥檝e got somebody that can coach and mentor them. So there鈥檚 a lot of ways we could do it. We鈥檙e just not thinking outside of the box, because, it鈥檚 typically not something that it鈥檚 just like succession planning credit. People have never really had to deal with that, no, and that鈥檚, you know, again, using myself as an example.
John
You know, I was hired by a board, and that board is, you know, they鈥檙e representative of our membership, but they鈥檝e never had to hire a CEO before. They鈥檝e never had to compensate the CEO before. And my job is decidedly different than theirs or any number. I mean, I don鈥檛 know anything about concrete, you know. And the guy who鈥檚 the credit manager at the concrete company, our jobs are different. He doesn鈥檛 know anything about doing Association work. And some of the stuff we have to do or get to do, and so there was an education opportunity there. And my view on that was, okay, guys, you don鈥檛 know what you鈥檙e doing, and they鈥檇 all laugh and say, Yeah, you鈥檙e right. And I said, so when you go through this process after you鈥檝e learned all the things we鈥檙e going to talk about, you鈥檙e going to be better equipped to work in your own company, but if you鈥檙e on the board of a nonprofit or your church or whatever, you鈥檙e also going to be better equipped to help them. And so you鈥檙e going to be a bet you鈥檙e going to be a better commodity out there by having a good learning experience. And all of this, I think, has to be couched in that term. You start young, you learn a little bit, you learn a little bit more, you get more responsibility. And that鈥檚 kind of lifelong learning. And I don鈥檛 know, being a whole person, if you will. He was a little tired. That鈥檚 going to talk about but, but it is. It鈥檚 about building you and your skill set, and you have to have some ambition in there, though, just so does it go back to, instead of saying, Hey, we can鈥檛 find any credit people, it鈥檚 I need to just find a talented amateur and invest in some training.
Thea
If you can find that person. Yeah, and, but I鈥檝e, I鈥檝e had the other side of the spectrum where somebody started, and I had a credit manager friend call and say, well, that dude made it 17 days, and he didn鈥檛 even the guy didn鈥檛 even quit. To my face. He waited till he got back from training and then sent me an email and said, Hey, I left all your equipment at the branch. I can鈥檛 this. This is not the job I thought it was going to be. And, you know, she said I hired someone who was from, you know, in their 30s, thinking, you know, maybe a younger generation, they鈥檙e bringing some different things to the table. And they got here and went, Oh, hell no. And she鈥檚 like, Yeah, you know, training sucks. Training is hard. Nobody you know learning new computer systems. You鈥檙e learning new customers. You鈥檙e learning a company. So you鈥檙e learning all of these different things. It does take a little bit of time to acclimate and get comfortable in this seat, but 17 days you barely know where the bathroom is. You didn鈥檛 even give it a shot. So if you had any advice for somebody looking for a credit person.
You know, if I come to you and I鈥檓 like, John, I need to find, you know, two credit managers. And it does, and I tell you, they need to have experience, and you鈥檙e like, well, good luck. How do you feel about taking, you know, an amateur that is intelligent, and there鈥檚 some, at least there, they are a passionate person. As far as they鈥檒l get excited about something, you get them engaged, and they鈥檙e going to run with it. What advice would you give for somebody that鈥檚 looking for credit people? I think I would start by saying, Go get involved in your industry trade group. And anybody that鈥檚 involved with somebody like us knows what trade groups are all about. But essentially, whether it鈥檚 wiring or HVAC or wiring, HVAC, plumbing, hospitality, food, whatever the industry is, we have these. We have industry groups, and those are like minded individuals from your profession. And so go there and talk to them, see who they know again. Let鈥檚 use your network and their network and see what you can do with that. Oh, so I have no problem poaching. It鈥檚 like, Look, if you can鈥檛 make them happy, I will steal them if I can. Well, and I鈥檓 not necessarily saying poaching. I鈥檓 just, I mean, that was me. I don鈥檛 want to I don鈥檛 want to I don鈥檛 want to know, John, I鈥檓 not going to tag you with poaching. That was me. I problem poaching. It鈥檚 like, Look, if you鈥檙e not happy, where you might be happy, but you could be happier here, if I can figure out what gets you excited is it you want to do? You want to grow more. You want to learn you know more about different things. There鈥檚 a certain maybe you really into the mechanics lien part of it, or the legal part of it, or you really like doing the asset searching. What is it that that really floats your boat about this job? Is there one aspect over another? And if that鈥檚 what you鈥檙e into, I want to help get you there. Yeah.
John
Yeah, absolutely. And all I鈥檓 saying, I鈥檓 on the board of a nonprofit in my community, and we鈥檙e looking for some people right now, not credit people, they happen to be development officers or a development officer to go raise money. Those are very hard to find, very much like credit people are and so it鈥檚 really a question of, okay, who do we know that we could talk to? Where are we going to look and how are we going to go about it? Set the plan up, but it would be like going to your industry group. It would be like calling us, depending on how I鈥檓 not sure you鈥檙e going to call a search firm, necessarily for a beginning level, but you might, if you鈥檙e you know, if you have some unique characteristic, but I think it鈥檚 really it鈥檚 a matter of work in your network. And I think what I鈥檝e seen in the last few years, and COVID certainly exacerbated it, but it was happening before then. Are the people in our profession, and it鈥檚 not unique to us, by any means, but I think we have, we read Facebook and we read LinkedIn, and we do all that stuff. Okay, use those tools. That鈥檚 fine, but develop the relationships. And back in the day, you know, I was a member of Seattle rotary that had 750 members, and we met every week and all that, you got to know a heck of a lot of people that way. And those organizations like Rotary, like Kiwanis, whatever, they鈥檝e had the same membership issues that we鈥檝e all had, and it鈥檚 declining. And we don鈥檛, we don鈥檛 work the way we used to, and I think we鈥檝e lost something with that. So to the extent you can go out and meet people, however, wherever you鈥檙e going to meet them, and you knowing full well, Someday you may call that, they may call you, but that鈥檚 that鈥檚 the business. I networks are huge, and I speak from as someone who probably used to know most of the movers and shakers in in the greater Seattle area, because they went to rotary and I was a kid. They were world war two people, and they were nice, and I was nice to them. And so I had a heck of a Rolodex for 20 years. I don鈥檛 have that anymore, and part of it is that I stopped doing that stuff, and for various reasons, and I think all legitimate. You know, life changes. You do other things. But I now I鈥檓 looking at it going, okay, my world鈥檚 going to change. I鈥檓 not going to be inactive. I don鈥檛 know what I鈥檓 going to do, but I鈥檓 going to, I鈥檓 not going to be inactive. And there are people that are calling now saying, you know, do you want to do this and such? And I鈥檓 kind of pushing back a little bit, but I want to. I want a better network, and it鈥檚 more fun to get to know people and hang out with them, and rather than sit here and talk to myself.
Thea
Now, you and I spent a lot of time talking to each other. Well, you know, you brought up LinkedIn, and you know, what was funny is that鈥檚 really kind of replaced a lot of that networking. What, in one way, it鈥檚 a really cool tool. And the other hand, I鈥檝e had people reach out and they鈥檙e like, Hey, I noticed that you鈥檙e connected to so and so in your network. Can you introduce me? And I鈥檓 like, I don鈥檛 really know that person. I鈥檝e never met them. I Okay. I didn鈥檛 even know they were in my network, because after a while, you know you鈥檙e it鈥檚 like Facebook. If you aren鈥檛 like Facebook, at least you鈥檙e hopefully, you know you鈥檝e got your private it鈥檚 you鈥檝e you kind of are a little picky about who you let in. But on LinkedIn, it鈥檚 a it鈥檚 a colleague type network. It is a work network, and I might not know that person. Would I be afraid to call them? Well, I, you know, it depends. What am I calling them for? Is, you know, hey, I鈥檇 like to introduce you to somebody because they I don鈥檛 it makes it a slight bit awkward, because that, that personal relationship isn鈥檛 there, and that that really sucks. I hate that. Well, I can tell you, this morning, just this morning, I had five different emails from people wanting to meet with me to talk about the different lists of people they could sell me and
John
and I mean, I鈥檓 going, where are you getting well, they鈥檙e getting me getting it from LinkedIn. And so I, you know, as you know, I live on an island, I have to commute my ferry, and that gives me 15 minutes each way, and probably about once a month, I go through the LinkedIn list to see who I can dump and who they are, if I don鈥檛 know them, and I don鈥檛 even know How they got on the list, but I think I right now I have something like 650 personal friends. No, I don鈥檛. I maybe have five. But the reality is, people get on this list, however, and periodically, it needs to be filtered. And, you know.
So don鈥檛 be offended if you got dumped. It鈥檚 just, I don鈥檛, you know, I鈥檒l try not to. I鈥檓 not going to get my Kleenexes. Yeah, right. But the LinkedIn thing for that connection, it鈥檚 a little awkward, but you鈥檒l it鈥檚 like a whole other way you鈥檝e had to learn how to connect and grow that relationship and grow your network, where before you went to a conference, and that鈥檚 how you did it, and but at least you could say you met someone face to face. Here. It鈥檚 like, jump on a zoom with me, so I can see what you look like and make sure that you鈥檙e actually a person.
John
Check the fox. I鈥檓 not a robot. That鈥檚 like, look, I don鈥檛 know what, I don鈥檛 know what鈥檚 going on over there, but if we take that back to where we started with this whole conversation, the world is a different place today. It鈥檚 changing constantly, not necessarily for the better, and I鈥檓 not sure all this electronic Hoola is the best thing to in the world. Some of it is very convenient, like this, but next I鈥檓 going to hear you, like, out on your lawn, going, get off of my lawn, like, you know, shaking your fist. It鈥檚 like, Yeah, I know you鈥檙e not that old, so, but I think the idea of getting to, well, this nonprofit, I鈥檓 on the board of, I鈥檝e met a whole lot of new people, yeah, and I live on an island of 10,000 people. I mean, you鈥檇 think you鈥檇 know everybody, but you don鈥檛. And there鈥檚 a lot of new people, whatever. And I鈥檝e gotten to know a lot of new people in the last year, and they鈥檙e great folks. I mean, they鈥檙e different backgrounds and all that kind of thing, very passionate about what we do, and curious and ask good questions that we have a lot, that鈥檚 they鈥檙e fun meetings to participate in. Certainly, we have to solve the financial things and all the things that go with boards, but, but it鈥檚 a whole new network, and that鈥檚 the kind of thing. I think, from the day I walked in the door here, I always felt like a lot of the people we serve just have a hard time advocating for themselves and try and trying to push the put, you know, push things a little bit and grow. And so you can鈥檛, if you鈥檙e that younger or newer person, I鈥檓 not sure you can always depend on the boss to lead you by the ring in your nose along the way, you have to show some gumption on your end, ask good questions and be involved and be engaged, and do it in a way that is ideally face to face, if that鈥檚 possible.
And again, build, build your net, your network of colleagues and friends, because you鈥檙e going to need them someday, and they鈥檙e going to need you and so, but that鈥檚 sort of an old school method. And we tend, we tend to, I mean, even getting people to pick up the telephone that鈥檚, that weighs 800 pounds. And, you know, it鈥檚, it鈥檚, I find it, I find it to be a little frustrating. It鈥檚 like, pick up. I was excited to have a phone conversation that wasn鈥檛 a zoom. It鈥檚 like, every, every meeting is not a zoom. Every you know, some things are just a phone call. But I started stalking my friends and credit manager friends kids. It鈥檚 like, Hey, what鈥檚 your kid doing? Like, why? Like, dang it, job. I actually like their personality. I can teach them to do credit if they鈥檙e looking for a career or even just, just give me five years. That鈥檚 all I鈥檓 asking for, you know, just try to create. Like, it just, you know, Hey, I am not above poaching, stealing, pilfering. Like, how do I get you engaged? Because I really do think once you get people exposed to what this job really is, it is a really cool job. And I know when I say that to people, they kind of freak out, and they鈥檙e like, you鈥檙e not right. There鈥檚 something definitely wrong with you. It鈥檚 like, well, maybe there is. But I think you can say that about and I would, I don鈥檛 want to be a CFO. I鈥檝e never wanted to be a CFO, and yet that鈥檚 some people鈥檚 ambition where they I know someone started in credit, they became the company CFO. That鈥檚 cool, if that鈥檚 your thing.
Thea
I think the other thing is, like, when I started in credit, I didn鈥檛 know what I wanted to do. I just needed to pay my bills. So it was a job. Just, I just need a job. And then I started doing the job. I鈥檓 like, well, this doesn鈥檛 suck every day. And then you get a little bit more success under you. You get a little bit more knowledge, and you keep growing it, and you decide what you want to do. And I think just getting somebody to see what the job is. And that鈥檚 the biggest part. That鈥檚 where I have no problem going, Hey, what is your kid doing? Give them to me. Let me drag them over here. I think when we鈥檙e looking at Hey, we can鈥檛 find credit people. We鈥檙e not as employers. We鈥檙e not being creative enough. We鈥檙e not. Working in, you know, some we鈥檙e not looking in, maybe some on obvious places, there are hirable people all around you. Now, granted, some people don鈥檛 want to work. That鈥檚 a whole other. That鈥檚, that鈥檚 just a whole other rabbit hole I can鈥檛 even face right now. But looking at different if you have good customer service skills. I don鈥檛 care if you鈥檙e the bartender. You maybe, okay, of course, I pick a bartender.
听
Thea
But that鈥檚 something that you can鈥檛 you can鈥檛 teach people how to have a personality. And this job takes a lot of personality. You don鈥檛 need an accounting degree for this. I all I need to do is to be able to add and subtract. And it鈥檚 like, look, here, you owe me money. Give it to me. I can. That鈥檚 easy math. I can鈥檛 teach you how to have a personality. I can teach you everything else about this job.
John
And even if you don鈥檛 have much of a personality, there鈥檚 work for you. We鈥檝e had a couple. We can put you somewhere. Yeah, but, but, yeah. Now there鈥檚 a there鈥檚 a place, and, you know, we have, I鈥檓 thinking about one of our collectors, who is, she鈥檚, she鈥檚, she鈥檚 slightly a little crazy, but she鈥檚 really fun, and she won鈥檛 take no for an answer. So picking up the phone is very easy for her, and she just takes no prisoners. Now, did she come that way? Part of that鈥檚 her personality. Part of it was her training with us. But she just thrives on going after somebody for money that鈥檚 owed to one of our members. And she won鈥檛 take no for an answer, and just she鈥檒l keep going after him and after him and after him and after him and fine. Well, yeah, because that鈥檚 our money. You didn鈥檛 just lie to some nameless, faceless person. You lied to me, and we鈥檙e going to square this off. Yeah, I don鈥檛 know that we solved any problems here today. I think we鈥檝e said, put some light on that. It鈥檚 the answer that you鈥檙e looking for is not always obvious. It鈥檚 not a clear cut path. I would love to be able to say, look, you know, John and I solved all the world鈥檚 problems, and now you know where to go find good credit people. And if you鈥檙e looking at retiring, here鈥檚, here鈥檚 what you do for your next you know your encore Act, or whatever it is you鈥檙e doing. But I hope that we gave people some food for thought and maybe reframed the conversation for them. Well, I agree, and I hope I鈥檓 going to be curious to see what feedback you might get. There may be some people out there in podcast land that contact you with ideas of their own about how they found people suggestions. Oh, I would love that. There may be some interesting feedback. And I if you get that, I hope you鈥檒l share it with me. I鈥檓 just curious because I share with you. John, yeah, well, we have you too long to not share.
Thea
We鈥檝e again, this is a different time than we grew up in, and we have to adjust, and we鈥檙e constantly trying to come up with new things, throw ideas up against the wall, see what sticks. If it doesn鈥檛 stick, doesn鈥檛 mean it鈥檚 a failure. It does. It just means we didn鈥檛 it wasn鈥檛 as successful. Might not be, right? Yeah. So anyway, well, I think we鈥檙e going to wrap up this episode. And again, I don鈥檛 know that we solved everybody鈥檚 problems. Hopefully that that got you a little bit thinking of how to solve this, or how to at least definitely reframe that conversation to where maybe solutions that weren鈥檛 obvious before pop up or just some obscure things. But John Flora NACM, Business Credit Services out of Seattle, always, always a pleasure to have you and to pick your brain on stuff, and you鈥檙e just, I always have a lot of fun with you. Thank you very much. It鈥檚 been fun doing this. Hope we can do it again. Oh, definitely. We鈥檒l come up with something else. In the meantime, everybody, this is another episode of 麻豆传媒 talks credit, and we hope you join us again. We are available every other Tuesday on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, you name it, we鈥檙e there. Talk to you next time.
